- Liittynyt
- 7.10.2002
- Viestejä
- 2 081
teemupii sanoi:
Taas otit lähteeksi jonku haistapaskanettisivun ja vielä viherpiipertäjien propagandasivuston! :
Suuri proteiinikeskustelu
- Keskustelun aloittaja Phat
- Aloitettu
Taas otit lähteeksi jonku haistapaskanettisivun ja vielä viherpiipertäjien propagandasivuston! :
- Liittynyt
- 16.1.2003
- Viestejä
- 334
Anssi Manninen sanoi:
No joo, mutta meinasin tuolla "maito-osteoporoosi" -heitollani enemmänkin väitettyjä(?) kalsiumin haittoja joita maidosta saa...Ja tämä kaikki siis liittyy topiciin siten että moni käyttää maitotuotteita proteiinin lähteenä.
- Liittynyt
- 7.10.2002
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- 2 081
Tässä se linkki siihen graduun ja muihin proteiiniartikkeleihin:
http://www.cc.jyu.fi/~jjhulmi/seminaarityot.htm
http://www.cc.jyu.fi/~jjhulmi/seminaarityot.htm
- Liittynyt
- 28.2.2003
- Viestejä
- 1 870
Acidic diets (high in protein and refined food) will cause bone calcium leaching in order to maintain your blood pH balance. Chronic leeching of calcium from the bones increases the likelihood of osteoporosis. [Am. J. Clin. Nutr. 2001: 73, pp.118-122, Lancet 1968:1, pp.958-959]
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A chronic excess of dietary protein almost certainly taxes the kidneys and leads to gradual degeneration. (Williams, SR Nutrition and Diet Therapy, page 856, "The Aging Western Kidney").
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"An excess of protein creates an acidic pH in your body. In order to neutralize the acidic pH, the body uses calcium as a buffer, drawing the needed calcium from the bone. This process means that if you consume 9 or more ounces of flesh protein a day, your calcium needs increase by about 250 mg per day."
http://cpmcnet.columbia.edu/dept/ob.../nutrition.html
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A High Ratio of Dietary Animal to Vegetable Protein Increases the Rate of Bone Loss and the Risk of Fracture in Postmenopausal Women, Sellmeyer DE, Stone KL, Sebastian A, et al., Am J Clin Nutr. 2001;73:118-122
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Relationship of animal protein-rich diet to kidney stone formation and calcium metabolism.
Breslau NA, Brinkley L, Hill KD, Pak CY.
Center in Mineral Metabolism and Clinical Research, Department of Internal Medicine, Dallas, Texas.
We wished to determine whether different types of dietary protein might have different effects on calcium metabolism and on the propensity for renal stone formation. Fifteen young normal subjects were studied during three 12-day dietary periods during which their diet contained vegetable protein, vegetable and egg protein, or animal protein. While these three diets were constant with respect to Na, K, Ca, P, Mg, and quantity of protein, they had progressively higher sulfur contents. As the fixed acid content of the diets increased, urinary calcium excretion increased from 103 +/- 15 ( +/- SEM) mg/day (2.6 +/- 0.4 mmol/day) on the vegetarian diet to 150 +/- 13 mg/day (3.7 +/- 0.3 mmol/day) on the animal protein diet (P less than 0.02). Despite the increased urinary calcium excretion, there was a modest reduction of urinary cAMP excretion and serum PTH and 1,25-dihydroxyvitamin D levels consistent with acid-induced bone dissolution. There was no change in fractional intestinal 47Ca absorption. The inability to compensate for the animal protein-induced calciuric response may be a risk factor for the development of osteoporosis. The animal protein-rich diet was associated with the highest excretion of undissociated uric acid due to the reduction in urinary pH. Moreover, citrate excretion was reduced because of the acid load. However, oxalate excretion was lower than during the vegetarian diet [26 +/- 1 mg/day (290 +/- 10 mumol/day) vs. 39 +/- 2 mg/day (430 +/- 20 mumol/day); P less than 0.02]. Urinary crystallization studies revealed that the animal protein diet, when its electrolyte composition and quantity of protein were kept the same as for the vegetarian diet, conferred an increased risk for uric acid stones, but, because of opposing factors, not for calcium oxalate or calcium phosphate stones.
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Excess dietary protein can adversely affect bone, Uriel S Barzel and Linda K Massey, Journal of Nutrition, 1998; 128: 1051-1053
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dietary animal and plant protein and human bone health: a whole foods approach.
Massey LK.
Food Science and Human Nutrition, Washington State University Spokane, 99210, USA. massey@wsu.edu
Urinary calcium excretion is strongly related to net renal acid excretion. The catabolism of dietary protein generates ammonium ion and sulfates from sulfur-containing amino acids. Bone citrate and carbonate are mobilized to neutralize these acids, so urinary calcium increases when dietary protein increases. Common plant proteins such as soy, corn, wheat and rice have similar total S per g of protein as eggs, milk and muscle from meat, poultry and fish. Therefore increasing intake of purified proteins from either animal or plant sources similarly increases urinary calcium. The effects of a protein on urinary calcium and bone metabolism are modified by other nutrients found in that protein food source. For example, the high amount of calcium in milk compensates for urinary calcium losses generated by milk protein. Similarly, the high potassium levels of plant protein foods, such as legumes and grains, will decrease urinary calcium. The hypocalciuric effect of the high phosphate associated with the amino acids of meat at least partially offsets the hypercalciuric effect of the protein. Other food and dietary constituents such as vitamin D, isoflavones in soy, caffeine and added salt also have effects on bone health. Many of these other components are considered in the potential renal acid load of a food or diet, which predicts its effect on urinary acid and thus calcium. "Excess" dietary protein from either animal or plant proteins may be detrimental to bone health, but its effect will be modified by other nutrients in the food and total diet.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
A chronic excess of dietary protein almost certainly taxes the kidneys and leads to gradual degeneration. (Williams, SR Nutrition and Diet Therapy, page 856, "The Aging Western Kidney").
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
"An excess of protein creates an acidic pH in your body. In order to neutralize the acidic pH, the body uses calcium as a buffer, drawing the needed calcium from the bone. This process means that if you consume 9 or more ounces of flesh protein a day, your calcium needs increase by about 250 mg per day."
http://cpmcnet.columbia.edu/dept/ob.../nutrition.html
------------------------------------------------------------------------
A High Ratio of Dietary Animal to Vegetable Protein Increases the Rate of Bone Loss and the Risk of Fracture in Postmenopausal Women, Sellmeyer DE, Stone KL, Sebastian A, et al., Am J Clin Nutr. 2001;73:118-122
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Relationship of animal protein-rich diet to kidney stone formation and calcium metabolism.
Breslau NA, Brinkley L, Hill KD, Pak CY.
Center in Mineral Metabolism and Clinical Research, Department of Internal Medicine, Dallas, Texas.
We wished to determine whether different types of dietary protein might have different effects on calcium metabolism and on the propensity for renal stone formation. Fifteen young normal subjects were studied during three 12-day dietary periods during which their diet contained vegetable protein, vegetable and egg protein, or animal protein. While these three diets were constant with respect to Na, K, Ca, P, Mg, and quantity of protein, they had progressively higher sulfur contents. As the fixed acid content of the diets increased, urinary calcium excretion increased from 103 +/- 15 ( +/- SEM) mg/day (2.6 +/- 0.4 mmol/day) on the vegetarian diet to 150 +/- 13 mg/day (3.7 +/- 0.3 mmol/day) on the animal protein diet (P less than 0.02). Despite the increased urinary calcium excretion, there was a modest reduction of urinary cAMP excretion and serum PTH and 1,25-dihydroxyvitamin D levels consistent with acid-induced bone dissolution. There was no change in fractional intestinal 47Ca absorption. The inability to compensate for the animal protein-induced calciuric response may be a risk factor for the development of osteoporosis. The animal protein-rich diet was associated with the highest excretion of undissociated uric acid due to the reduction in urinary pH. Moreover, citrate excretion was reduced because of the acid load. However, oxalate excretion was lower than during the vegetarian diet [26 +/- 1 mg/day (290 +/- 10 mumol/day) vs. 39 +/- 2 mg/day (430 +/- 20 mumol/day); P less than 0.02]. Urinary crystallization studies revealed that the animal protein diet, when its electrolyte composition and quantity of protein were kept the same as for the vegetarian diet, conferred an increased risk for uric acid stones, but, because of opposing factors, not for calcium oxalate or calcium phosphate stones.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Excess dietary protein can adversely affect bone, Uriel S Barzel and Linda K Massey, Journal of Nutrition, 1998; 128: 1051-1053
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dietary animal and plant protein and human bone health: a whole foods approach.
Massey LK.
Food Science and Human Nutrition, Washington State University Spokane, 99210, USA. massey@wsu.edu
Urinary calcium excretion is strongly related to net renal acid excretion. The catabolism of dietary protein generates ammonium ion and sulfates from sulfur-containing amino acids. Bone citrate and carbonate are mobilized to neutralize these acids, so urinary calcium increases when dietary protein increases. Common plant proteins such as soy, corn, wheat and rice have similar total S per g of protein as eggs, milk and muscle from meat, poultry and fish. Therefore increasing intake of purified proteins from either animal or plant sources similarly increases urinary calcium. The effects of a protein on urinary calcium and bone metabolism are modified by other nutrients found in that protein food source. For example, the high amount of calcium in milk compensates for urinary calcium losses generated by milk protein. Similarly, the high potassium levels of plant protein foods, such as legumes and grains, will decrease urinary calcium. The hypocalciuric effect of the high phosphate associated with the amino acids of meat at least partially offsets the hypercalciuric effect of the protein. Other food and dietary constituents such as vitamin D, isoflavones in soy, caffeine and added salt also have effects on bone health. Many of these other components are considered in the potential renal acid load of a food or diet, which predicts its effect on urinary acid and thus calcium. "Excess" dietary protein from either animal or plant proteins may be detrimental to bone health, but its effect will be modified by other nutrients in the food and total diet.
- Liittynyt
- 28.2.2003
- Viestejä
- 1 870
High protein weight loss diets linked to kidney strain
The American Kidney Fund (AKF) is warning Americans about popular high-protein diets for weight loss. The diets place such a significant strain on the kidneys that even conditioned athletes can become dehydrated, according to researchers at the University of Connecticut who studied five fit endurance runners who consumed a low, then a medium, and finally a high-protein diet. During the high-protein phase, the runners consumed about 30% of their total calories from foods such as eggs, steak, and so-called 'power bars.' Blood tests showed that increasing the protein intake led to a progression toward dehydration and that a greater strain was placed on the kidneys due to the excessive amount of protein. In otherwise healthy individuals, a protein intake of no more than 2 grams of protein per kilogram of body weight was recommended by the researchers in order to avoid negative long-term effects. The AKF news release is posted at http://www.kidneyfund.org/AboutAKF/Newsroom_020425.htm
The American Kidney Fund (AKF) is warning Americans about popular high-protein diets for weight loss. The diets place such a significant strain on the kidneys that even conditioned athletes can become dehydrated, according to researchers at the University of Connecticut who studied five fit endurance runners who consumed a low, then a medium, and finally a high-protein diet. During the high-protein phase, the runners consumed about 30% of their total calories from foods such as eggs, steak, and so-called 'power bars.' Blood tests showed that increasing the protein intake led to a progression toward dehydration and that a greater strain was placed on the kidneys due to the excessive amount of protein. In otherwise healthy individuals, a protein intake of no more than 2 grams of protein per kilogram of body weight was recommended by the researchers in order to avoid negative long-term effects. The AKF news release is posted at http://www.kidneyfund.org/AboutAKF/Newsroom_020425.htm
- Liittynyt
- 28.2.2003
- Viestejä
- 1 870
Tämä kiinnostaisi varmaan myös Atkinsin dietillä olevia:
The effect of high-protein diets on coronary blood flow.
Fleming RM.
Angiology 2000 Oct;51(10):817-26
The Fleming Heart and Health Institute and the Camelot Foundation, Omaha, Nebraska 68114, USA. rfmd1@uswest.net
Recent research has demonstrated that successful simultaneous treatment of multiple risk factors including cholesterol, triglycerides, homocysteine, lipoprotein (a) [Lp(a)], fibrinogen, antioxidants, endothelial dysfunction, inflammation, infection, and dietary factors can lead to the regression of coronary artery disease and the recovery of viable myocardium. However, preliminary work revealed that a number of individuals enrolled in the original study went on popular high-protein diets in an effort to lose weight. Despite increasing numbers of individuals following high-protein diets, little or no information is currently available regarding the effect of these diets on coronary artery disease and coronary blood flow. Twenty-six people were studied for 1 year by using myocardial perfusion imaging (MPI), echocardiography (ECHO), and serial blood work to evaluate the extent of changes in regional coronary blood flow, regional wall motion abnormalities, and several independent variables known to be important in the development and progression of coronary artery disease. Treatment was based on homocysteine, Lp (a), C-reactive protein (C-RP), triglycerides, total cholesterol, high-density lipoprotein cholesterol, low-density lipoprotein cholesterol, very low-density lipoprotein cholesterol, and fibrinogen levels. Each variable was independently treated as previously reported. MPI and ECHO were performed at the beginning and end of the study for each individual. The 16 people (treatment group/TG) studied modified their dietary intake as instructed. Ten additional individuals elected a different dietary regimen consisting of a "high-protein" (high protein group/HPG) diet, which they believed would "improve" their overall health. Patients in the TG demonstrated a reduction in each of the independent variables studied with regression in both the extent and severity of coronary artery disease (CAD) as quantitatively measured by MPI. Recovery of viable myocardium was seen in 43.75% of myocardial segments in these patients, documented with both MPI and ECHO evaluations. Individuals in the HPG showed worsening of their independent variables. Most notably, fibrinogen, Lp (a), and C-RP increased by an average of 14%, 106%, and 61% respectively. Progression of the extent and severity of CAD was documented in each of the vascular territories with an overall cumulative progression of 39.7%. The differences between progression and extension of disease in the HPG and the regression of disease in the TG were statistically (p<0.001) significant. Patients following recommended treatment for each of the independent variables were able to regress both the extent and severity of their coronary artery disease (CAD), as well as improve their myocardial wall motion (function) while following the prescribed medical and dietary guidelines. However, individuals receiving the same medical treatment but following a high-protein diet showed a worsening of independent risk factors, in addition to progression of CAD. These results would suggest that high-protein diets may precipitate progression of CAI) through increases in lipid deposition and inflammatory and coagulation pathways.
The effect of high-protein diets on coronary blood flow.
Fleming RM.
Angiology 2000 Oct;51(10):817-26
The Fleming Heart and Health Institute and the Camelot Foundation, Omaha, Nebraska 68114, USA. rfmd1@uswest.net
Recent research has demonstrated that successful simultaneous treatment of multiple risk factors including cholesterol, triglycerides, homocysteine, lipoprotein (a) [Lp(a)], fibrinogen, antioxidants, endothelial dysfunction, inflammation, infection, and dietary factors can lead to the regression of coronary artery disease and the recovery of viable myocardium. However, preliminary work revealed that a number of individuals enrolled in the original study went on popular high-protein diets in an effort to lose weight. Despite increasing numbers of individuals following high-protein diets, little or no information is currently available regarding the effect of these diets on coronary artery disease and coronary blood flow. Twenty-six people were studied for 1 year by using myocardial perfusion imaging (MPI), echocardiography (ECHO), and serial blood work to evaluate the extent of changes in regional coronary blood flow, regional wall motion abnormalities, and several independent variables known to be important in the development and progression of coronary artery disease. Treatment was based on homocysteine, Lp (a), C-reactive protein (C-RP), triglycerides, total cholesterol, high-density lipoprotein cholesterol, low-density lipoprotein cholesterol, very low-density lipoprotein cholesterol, and fibrinogen levels. Each variable was independently treated as previously reported. MPI and ECHO were performed at the beginning and end of the study for each individual. The 16 people (treatment group/TG) studied modified their dietary intake as instructed. Ten additional individuals elected a different dietary regimen consisting of a "high-protein" (high protein group/HPG) diet, which they believed would "improve" their overall health. Patients in the TG demonstrated a reduction in each of the independent variables studied with regression in both the extent and severity of coronary artery disease (CAD) as quantitatively measured by MPI. Recovery of viable myocardium was seen in 43.75% of myocardial segments in these patients, documented with both MPI and ECHO evaluations. Individuals in the HPG showed worsening of their independent variables. Most notably, fibrinogen, Lp (a), and C-RP increased by an average of 14%, 106%, and 61% respectively. Progression of the extent and severity of CAD was documented in each of the vascular territories with an overall cumulative progression of 39.7%. The differences between progression and extension of disease in the HPG and the regression of disease in the TG were statistically (p<0.001) significant. Patients following recommended treatment for each of the independent variables were able to regress both the extent and severity of their coronary artery disease (CAD), as well as improve their myocardial wall motion (function) while following the prescribed medical and dietary guidelines. However, individuals receiving the same medical treatment but following a high-protein diet showed a worsening of independent risk factors, in addition to progression of CAD. These results would suggest that high-protein diets may precipitate progression of CAI) through increases in lipid deposition and inflammatory and coagulation pathways.
- Liittynyt
- 7.10.2002
- Viestejä
- 2 081
teemupii sanoi:
Todellisuudessa tämä liitttyi high protein very low carb ruokavalioon, jossa ketoosilla on osuutta. Mitä näyttöä siinkään ei tullut munuaisvahingoittumisesta. Puhdasta spekulaatiota.
- Liittynyt
- 7.10.2002
- Viestejä
- 2 081
teemupii sanoi:
Niin?
PS. Ja American Kidney mikälie ainakin aiemmin sanoi ettei runsaasta proteiinin saannista ole terveille ihmisille mitään haittaa.
- Liittynyt
- 7.10.2002
- Viestejä
- 2 081
"High protein weight loss diets linked to kidney strain"
Ostikko on jo sitä luokkaa, että ei tiedä pitäisikö itkeä vai nauraa. Toki proteiini aiheuttaa "strainia" munuaisille mutta mitään haittaa siitä ei ole _osoitettu_ olevan terveille ihmisille.
Ostikko on jo sitä luokkaa, että ei tiedä pitäisikö itkeä vai nauraa. Toki proteiini aiheuttaa "strainia" munuaisille mutta mitään haittaa siitä ei ole _osoitettu_ olevan terveille ihmisille.
- Liittynyt
- 7.10.2002
- Viestejä
- 2 081
En jaksa tämän hihhulin kanssa enää väitellä: Lue teemu se artikkeli siitä lehdestä ens kuussa.
Dopey
Easy like Sunday morning
- Liittynyt
- 8.12.2002
- Viestejä
- 8 305
Ylläolevassa on parikin epäilyttävää kohtaa: Mitä tuo "hoito" tuolla tarkoittaa? Oliko näillä tutkituilla jo putket tukossa ja munuaiset tiltissä? Kukaan ei varmasti tässä ryhmässä kiistä, etteikö munuaisvaivoista kärsivän ole erinomaisen huono idea syödä paljon proteiinia. Sen sijaan ylläoleva tutkimuskaan ei ainakaan abstraktin perusteella todellakaan todista, että korkeaproteiininen ruokavalio aiheuttaisi jotain vaurioita terveellä ihmisellä.teemupii sanoi:
Toiseksi tuossa sanotaan, että 16 yksilöä söi ruokavaliota, joka oli ilmeisesti tarkoitettu heidän kärsimänsä taudin hoitoon kun taas loppujen ruokavaliosta ei sanota mitään muuta kuin että siinä oli paljon proteiinia. Lisäksi nuo lainausmerkkeihin laitetut sanat antavat ymmärtää, että tutkimuksen tarkoituksena oli alunalkaenkin saada aikaan huonompia tuloksia korkean proteiinisuhteen ryhmälle.
Miksei kukaan tutki, mitä haittaa hiilareista on liikaa syötyinä?
- Liittynyt
- 7.10.2002
- Viestejä
- 2 081
Dopey sanoi:
Ai ei tutki?! Löytäähän noita tutkimuksia pubmedistä pilvin pimein.
- Liittynyt
- 7.10.2002
- Viestejä
- 2 081
- Liittynyt
- 28.2.2003
- Viestejä
- 1 870
Jos luet koko abstraktin (paremminkin ekan lauseen) niin huomaat että tutkittiin "sydänsairaita", eikä sydänsairaus merkitse sitä että munuaiset on sökönä. Hyvin selvästi sanottiin että hoidettin erilaisella ruokavaliolla "studied modified their dietary intake as instructed.Dopey sanoi: